We investigate the pressing down game and its relation to the Banach Mazur game. In particular we show: consistently, there is a nowhere precipitous normal ideal I on \documentclass[12pt]{minimal} \usepackage{amsmath} \usepackage{wasysym} \usepackage{amsfonts} \usepackage{amssymb} \usepackage{amsbsy} \usepackage{mathrsfs} \usepackage{upgreek} \setlength{\oddsidemargin}{-69pt} \begin{document}$${\aleph_2}$$\end{document} such that player nonempty wins the pressing down game of length \documentclass[12pt]{minimal} \usepackage{amsmath} \usepackage{wasysym} \usepackage{amsfonts} \usepackage{amssymb} \usepackage{amsbsy} \usepackage{mathrsfs} \usepackage{upgreek} \setlength{\oddsidemargin}{-69pt} \begin{document}$${\aleph_1}$$\end{document} on I even if player empty starts.

We consider a question of T. Jech and K. Prikry that asks if the existence of a precipitous filter implies the existence of a normal precipitous filter. The aim of this paper is to improve a result of Gitik (Israel J Math, 175:191–219, 2010) and to show that measurable cardinals of a higher order rather than just measurable cardinals are necessary in order to have a model with a precipitous filter but without a normal one.

Starting with a measurable cardinal κ of the Mitchell order κ++ we construct a model with a precipitous ideal on ℵ1 but without normal precipitous ideals. This answers a question by T. Jech and K. Prikry. In the constructed model there are no Q-point precipitous filters on ℵ1, i. e. those isomorphic to extensions of Cubℵ1.

With less than 0# two generic extensions ofL are identified: one in which ${\aleph_1}$ , and the other ${\aleph_2}$ , is almost precipitous. This improves the consistency strength upper bound of almost precipitousness obtained in Gitik M, Magidor M (On partialy wellfounded generic ultrapowers, in Pillars of Computer Science, 2010), and answers some questions raised there. Also, main results of Gitik (On normal precipitous ideals, 2010), are generalized—assumptions on precipitousness are replaced by those on ∞-semi precipitousness. As an application it (...) is shown that if δ is a Woodin cardinal and there is an ${f:\omega_1 \to \omega_1}$ with ${\|f\|=\omega_2}$ , then after ${Col(\aleph_2,\delta)}$ there is a normal precipitous ideal over ${\aleph_1}$ . The existence of a pseudo-precipitous ideal over a successor cardinal is shown to give an inner model with a strong cardinal. (shrink)